I have really been impressed by some of the insights you have shared in class. As we cannot possibly devote enough time, in my opinion, to this novel and we only have a short time left in which to discuss it, please continue to share your scholarly brilliance here:
Have you thought of another meaning for a symbol? Have you found some significance in a particular passage or event? Would you like to continue, amend, augment (add to), or dispute an interpretation of a symbol or passage discussed in class? Do you have a question about our discussion ...or do you need clarification?
I look forward to having you continue to dazzle me!
From mockingbirds to mad dogs to mobs to geraniums at the Ewell "house": let's talk!
I thought Snowman was a comparison to Boo's soap doll. Boo used soap doll as a present to Jem and Scout and to socialize with the children. Jem and Scout uses the snowman for their own entertainment and to show their dislike towards Mr. Avery.
ReplyDeleteThe geraniums in the Ewell yard are interesting to me. They are flowers in the midst of basically a dump of a house. I think this enriches the deeper meaning of the novel. One of the themes is that there is good and bad in everyone. This may show the good in the Ewells. On the outside, they are slobs who are spiteful and try to harm innocent people. However, someone in their family appreciates beauty. Which leads into yet another theme, about prejudice. In Maycomb, the Ewells are basically seen as the scum of the earth. And all Ewells are seen as this, so it becomes hard for them to move up in society. But clearly one Ewell does care about something. One Ewell (Mayella) cares enough to take care of a "garden" of red geraniums.
ReplyDeleteI think the snowman could also symbolize something greater in society. I think it was foreshadowing the ending of this novel. As we all now, snow melts and gets drained back in the Earth. Since we already have come to the conclusion that the mud represents black people and the snow represented white people we can infer that the snowman has to melt at some point in time. Maybe the snow melting and the mud becoming saturated and not being able to stand straight represents the Maycomb society changing? Later in the book we see how people start to support Tom Robinson and go against Bob Ewell. I don't know, just one of my crazy thoughts...
ReplyDeleteI thought the diseased dog had a deeper symbol of the people in Maycomb who, like the dog walk around mindlessly believing all the rumors about the society. Also since the dog is diseased he can spread his disease, just how people spread rumors and lies. The dog can even symbolize Bob Ewell in that he isn't thinking straight and has bad intentions, since Bob is always drunk and doesn't care for anybody he puts in danger.
ReplyDeleteI agree with Lauren about the dog having a deeper meaning. The dog's name, Tim Johnson is so similar to Tom Robinson. Another aspect of the dog described in the book it the fact that he walked as if his right two legs were shorter than the left. Tom Robinson also had a disability to his right arm which came up later in court. I think that Harper Lee chose to make Both Tom and Tim similar to forshadow the eventual shooting of Tom Robinson. I also think that the fact the dog was considered diseased also might play into the role that Tom Robinson was black and he was a "disease" to society and both Tim and Tom were shot out of fear of the unknown.
ReplyDeleteLauren,
ReplyDeleteI hadn't even thought of Tim Johnson that way at all but I see what you mean. That makes a lot of sense. Thanks. Also, mockingbirds are clearly an important symbol in this novel. They are mentioned many times in the book and the fact that it is a sin to kill a mockingbird is stressed. I think this relates to Tom Robinson's death because, he was as innocent as the mockingbirds and he was killed anyway. This also brought no good just as it would bring no good to kill a mockingbird. Mockingbirds could also be related to Boo Radley because just as it is senseless to kill a mockingbird it would have served no purpose to arrest Boo after he killed Mr. Ewell (to protect Jem and Scout) and make him go to court, when he clearly did the right thing and that would only make him unnecessarily uncomfortable.
Teresa, I agree with you about the symbol of the mockingbird. As I was rereading the book, on page 254, there is a direct correlation between the mockingbird and Boo Radley. As Scout and Jem are on the way to the pageant, they hear a lone mockingbird singing.This occurs exactly as they are in front of the Radley house. Jem says he thinks that Boo is not home because the mockingbird is there but I might disagree. I think that the mockingbird being there shows that Boo is in the Radley house alone because he is the mockingbird. This also would support later on in the novel how Boo gets out of the house to save Scout and Jem. If he was alone, he could probably sneak outside.
ReplyDeleteOne of the most fascinating symbols to me I think is Atticus's glasses. I keep thinking about different meanings for them. One idea was that they were a shield which prevented Atticus from releasing a more "macho" side of him such as being One Shot Finch. The shield also prevented Scout and Jem from seeing a side of Atticus which they think was courageous. After seeing this they see more of a reason to be proud. The glasses coming off showed a more manly, youthful side to Atticus.
ReplyDeleteI also thought of Atticus's glasses as a superhero mask. He seems to have another personality hidden under them. It conceals his true identity. But when the glasses come off, his identity is revealed as one shot Finch. Atticus has a secret life which most people don't know about. Miss Arney, I know after I told you this you said it would be interesting to see when superhero comics were created. Batman was created in 1939 and Spiderman in 1963. So if Harper Lee based the symbol on anything, it would probably be Batman. Then I also thought about Superman and he was created in 1932 but became popular in 1938. I think that he is more similar to Atticus though because even though he does not have a mask, if I am correct Clark Kent wears glasses to help conceal is identity. So that reminded me more of Atticus wearing glasses.
And a final symbol of Atticus's eyesight was how he is considered partially blind. Sometimes people refer to the justice as being blind. So Atticus having a good sense of morality and being a lawyer relates to justice even though he is "blind".
I agree about the symbols for mockingbirds.Plus I love your comparison of the glasses to a superhero mask, Danielle! Referring to the whole bird theme, in the novel there are two types of people, Mockingbirds and Bluejays. They are both birds that want to take care of their children and get food, just like the adults in Mockingbird. They all have pure motives under all of their shallow accusations. But it is these shallow beliefs and stereotypes that seperate the Mockingbirds(Boo, Atticus, Tom, entire black community, etc.) from the Bluejays(Ewells, Miss Merriweather, Miss Crawford, all racists, etc.). But since the Mockingbirds have the lowerhand because they are innocent and easily taken advantage of, they must stick together. In the the novel all the mockongbirds watch out for eachother(Boo saves Jem and Scout, Atticus defends Tom, the black community is very tight-knit and really cares for eachtoher). Some people in the novel transition from a bluejay to a Mockingbird, and that is evident when they begin helping other mockingbirds(Heck helps Boo and Atticus at end, Mr. Underwood covers Atticus when mob comes, Link Deas supports Tom in trial and gives Helen a job at the end, etc.). Lee's message is that everyone's goal should be to become a Mockingbird, its easier to be a bluejay, but being a bluejay is a sin.
ReplyDeleteJoanna,the idea of mockingbirds sticking together is so true! It is like a whole pack of birds trying to beat down on one big bully. I also think that Mayella Ewell can be a mockingbird because she is this internally good and innocent young woman who is constantly beaten down upon both physically and emotional by her abusive father and her tough life. I do believe though that she was wrong accusing Tom Robinson of rape, but I feel bad because she was helpless. If she didn't accuse him, her father would have probably killed her. So she was in a lose lose situation.Since this relates to Mayella, I think that her being strangles also had a moral significance. The strangle marks being on her right showed that the goodness of her was trying to be taken out. Bob Ewell strangling her with the left hand or devil hand showed evil trying to get at her.Since Mayella was just strangled, her goodness remained but I believe evil rubbed off because she accused Tom Robinson of rape.
ReplyDeleteI was just wondering if this is relevant. During class, Ms.Arney was telling us that because of Mr.Ewells abusive nature, he might have raped his daughter Mayella. She also explained that some of the children on the Ewell property may be Mayella's. In the book it explains that some people didn't know how many children lived on the property. "Some people said six, others said nine..." (Lee 171). Maybe the number of kids seems to change because, Mayella has had a few children.
ReplyDeleteIn my version novel of TKAM, after Scout and Jem got their air rifles there is the quote, "I went to the backyard and found Jem plugging away at a tin can, which seemed stupid with all the bluejays around" (Lee 91). I think this both symbolizes and foreshadows the later event of Bob Ewell attacking Jem in the way Jem could not kill Bob Ewell in the end. They both fought each other but Jem could not take him down. Bob Ewell is the blue jay which Jem does not shoot at to kill. Instead, Boo Radley kills Bob Ewell while Jem lies there comatose. It is also ironic how a mockingbird, Boo Radley, beats and kills a blue jay, Bob Ewell, who is normally the more prominent bird.
ReplyDeleteThere was also the symbol of Atticus's "right" eye being his correctly moral eye and side. After Scout got into a fight with Aunt Alexandra, Atticus told her to apologize and she refused. She then said, "Atticus turned his head and pinned me to the wall with his good eye" (Lee 136). Atticus used justice or his right side with Scout. His right eye is his better eye. Scout knew she was wrong by yelling at and blaming Aunt Alexandra and Atticus was showing it to her through his right perspective.
ReplyDeleteI also thought that Scout and Bob Ewell have something in common in a way. They both act violently and irrationally when they get their pride damaged. After Cecil Jacobs offends Atticus and the Finches, Scout defends the family's reputation by beating him up. After Atticus showed the town that Bob Ewell beat up Mayella even though noone admitted or spoke of it, he wanted revenge on Atticus to protect his pride by attacking and tryin to kill Atticus's children, scout and Jem.
There was also and earlier reference in the book refering to mockingbirds when Dill correlates lighting a match under a helpless turtle would be like lighting a match on the Radley house. I think this is one of the first direct relations of Boo being a mockingbird. It is just not realized until later in the book.
I know that I keep posting comments but I keep finding different things so symbolic and fascinating. I mentioned this at extra help but I think that the Finch family besides having the hereditary small hands and feet things supposedly, I think they have a rifleman streak or genetic trait. Jem and Scout are given the air rifles as we see in the book. Uncle Jack is a pretty good gunman and teaches them how to shoot. The there is the Maycomb renowned "One Shot Finch", or Atticus, who is this insanely good rifleman who shoots the mad dog Tim Johnson. Then Atticus mentions cousin Joshua Finch who tried to shoot the president. It seems the Finches are associated with guns but not necessarily in a bad way all the time. Actually it is ironic because the Finches are especially Atticus and the children are wise and morally correct mostly and have this "gun history" and guns are usually violent and hurtful.
ReplyDeleteWhat motif or theme would the example of Atticus telling Link that Tom isn't leaving the chair till the truths told?
ReplyDeleteI wrote a new symbol that Miss Arney shared today at extra help in the blog about epiphanies (since Miss Arney had an epiphany!). So I'll copy it into here also:
ReplyDeleteThe snow represents Tom Robinson, while the fire represents Bob Ewell. Snow is made out of water, and what puts out fire? Water. So since Tom is the water and Bob is the fire, Tom is "putting out" Bob by killing him to protect the children.
I meant to say Boo Radley instead of Tom Robinson!
ReplyDeleteEmily, I think that would be under the motif/theme courage or losing battles because Atticus knows he is going to lose the case but he still follows through to prove Tom's innocence. If i remember correctly Miss Arney wrote it under losing battles in her study guide. I think it is in chapter 9 but it might be in 15 I did not write it down exactly so I can't find it. Sorry I hope this helps!
ReplyDeleteFor bird references. Miss Stephanie "Craw"ford is like a "Crow". She is always talking and gossiping in the town like crows usually are "cawing" all the time. They and she never shut up.
ReplyDeleteJem or Jeremy Atticus Finch has the middle name Atticus. I think this symbolizes how Atticus is a part of him just like his name is in him. A more mature side which resembles Atticus is shown as he grows up in the book. It also being in the middle of his name could represent him acquiring it in the mid stage of his life being a teenager or in the middle of the story. The name Jem can also symbolize a "gem" who is cleaned up from being a child to become a diamond.Scout or Jean Louise Finch's middle name I think represent the more feminine side she acquires later on. Louise reminds me of a more female name compared to Jean so it is also like she gains her girly side later on as well. I think the nickname Scout can also represent how she is like a Scout or a searching kind of person. She searches for the truth about Boo Radley and is searching for a way to grow up.
Bob Ewell's name or Robert E Lee Ewell is a general during the civil war. Braxton Bragg Underwood mentions people who were named after civil war generals usually had a drinking habit which he did not want. But Bob Ewell shows this.
This does not have to do with names but with the symbol of racism. After Jem destroys Mrs. Dubose's camellias, they evetually grow back. She tells him he can't destroy her "snow on the mountains" because they can only be taken from the roots. The "snow on the mountains" can symbolize the white racism on top of the plant or roots. The roots are the black community or people who try to help them who are the support structure of the white but could also destroy the white society if they were taken out. I think Jem also trying to destroy the tops also represents Atticus trying to destroy the racism of Maycomb. He does not fully get there though because he needs to get to the roots still.
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ReplyDeleteDanielle, I never thought of the Crawford, being like a crow. What also interested me was how Harper Lee made all the "mockingbirds" in the novel be right handed and the evil to the society such as Bob Ewell be elft. Then the dog, Tim Johnson be completely diseased on the right side, making the left take over.
ReplyDeleteI know that we learned the snow represented Boo Radley because it was innocent and so was he. I think it also represents Boo because he is unknown and so is the snow to Jem and Scout. The snow is also white just like the physical paleness and ghostlike characteristics of Boo Radley. The snow spread through Maycomb just like rumors of Boo had spread through it at one point and still do. I also thought that instead of Boo being pale and very white colored physically like a ghost (ghosts say boo), it could represent an angel like when he is called Atticus calls him Mr.Arthur at the end when he is a protector instead of Boo. Usually angels are thought of as these holy, white glowing figures. Boo is like the guardian angel of Scout and Jem while protecting them and saving them from Bob Ewell. He will always watch them from three doors down and he is also always with them. Since we know Boo is innocent and pure, him being so pale and white could also represent that. Usually white represents purity and innocence like the snow as well it shows Boo on both the outside and inside is pure just like a mockingbird's innocence.
ReplyDeleteThe song "Behind Blue Eyes" reminds me exactly of both Dolphus Raymond and Boo Radley.
ReplyDeleteFOR DOLPHUS RAYMOND:
-"Nobody knows what it's like/To be the bad man/To be the sad man..." No one understands Dolphus Raymond. He is seen by Maycomb as a bad man, for having the associations he has with the African American community. But nobody understands him (except for maybe Atticus), and nobody understands why he acts the way he does. No one even knows that he is not really an alcoholic, but only pretends to be one, because he wants to give Maycomb an excuse for his own behavior.
-"No one knows what it's like/To be hated/To be fated/To telling only lies." Because of the excess prejudice of Maycomb, Dolphus Raymond is in a way "fated to telling only lies".
Even more so, I think that this entire song sounds as though it could be authored by Boo.
Especially these parts:
-"When I smile, tell me some bad news/Before I laugh and act like a fool." This one is intriguing to me. Telling Boo "some bad news" and not allowing him to be happy and to smile, or to laugh... That is exactly what Maycomb County has done to him for years. He is suppressed by his own brother in his own house. Not allowed to enjoy his life.
-"But my dreams/They aren't as empty/As my conscience seems to be." Especially the dreams part makes me think... Boo dreams of being a father, of living the chapters of his life that were forced to be lost and overwritten by monotony and abuse locked up in his own home. His conscience is empty because he has no opportunity to use it. He has no choices to make.
-"I have hours, only lonely..." Pretty self explanitory.
And then I found one part that is very ironic.
"And if I shiver, please give me a blanket/Keep me warm; let me wear your coat." If one thinks about this one further, it is interesting because Boo gives Scout a blanket. Boo makes sure Scout is warm. But nobody makes sure he is.
The snow in Maycomb represents the innocence like Boo Radley and Tom Robinson. The fire in Maycomb represents evil like Bob Ewell. Snow doesnt fall alot in Maycomb, which symbolizes that there is not a lot of innocence in Maycomb. There are more fires than snow which represents more evil than good.
ReplyDeleteYeah, and also fire can put out snow, in the same way that evil can kill innocence, and this is seen in the novel in several instances, as Jem and Scout mature. Also, it has not snowed since 1885. Does anyone know if anything specific happened in 1885 that would be significant to this? Something that has not happened since 1885 but does happen in the novel (specifically something to do with racism or prejudice)?
ReplyDeleteOne more question. Is the case that To Kill a Mockingbird is based off of Powell v. Alabama?
Erin, I am not sure about 1885. Atticus was born in the late 1800's from figuring it out so maybe it had something with him coming to Maycomb but I am not sure if Harper Lee intentionally did this. I think Miss Arney said Harper Lee based th Tom Robinson case off of a case where nine black men were accused of killing two white women and they were really innocent and the women admitted it but they were hanged anyway. So from looking at Powell v. Alabama that seems to be the same case it was based on.
ReplyDeleteWeren't most of the men in that case sentenced to death?
ReplyDeleteI think eight or seven of the nine were yes. Therefore Tom Robinson would have been sentenced to the electric chair for being charged with raping Mayella. And in my previous post I meant raped not killed sorry!
ReplyDeleteI think that there is a constant reference on the symbolism of guns in TKAM but each has a different meaning. One of the obvious parts with a gun being a symbol is when Atticus uses the rifle to kill old Tim Johnson. From Scout and Jem's perspective, it represents courage and bravery. Atticus had the strength and ability to defeat Tim Johnson which represented danger and prejudice. There was also the gun BB Underwood had to back Atticus up with at the jail. That gun symbolized protection since Underwood was covering Atticus. I guess the gun Atticus uses to shoot Tim Johnson can also symbolize protection because he is trying to protect Scout, Jem, and his neighbors from the rabies. On a bigger scale, he is trying to protect the whole town from prejudice. In a way the shooting was like a miny forshadowing or version of the trial because a mockingbird is shot, prejudice or the disease is trying to be destroyed, and Atticus is the one who tries to do that. It seems as though the message is that violence usually prevails over reason and thought since when Atticus used the gun he beat Tim but when he used words he did not defeat racism against Tom Robinson. It is sad to say but if one looks at society it normally is true. Back to the gun symbolism, there is also the gun reference to Mrs. DuBoise having a pistol hidden under her shawls. The gun there represents fear for the children or the unknown. Then there is the gun used to kill mockingbirds. The gun represents evil in its truest form. This is more of a general example but there is the gun used to kill Tom Robinson, a mockingbird. The guards shooting him only had racist intentions shooting him seventeen times as overkill. There are probably even more gun symbols or references in TKAM than right here.
ReplyDeleteDanielle, I agree. And when Mr. Underwood is backing Atticus up at the jail with a BB gun, he is still portrayed as somewhat of a coward. Which further proves Harper Lee's point about what true courage is. Mr. Underwood has a gun that night, but nobody would say he is courageous.
ReplyDeleteAnd it really is upsetting, the point you brought up about violence being more effective than words to most of the people in Maycomb. It is still true today for many, I believe. If someone were to plead for help, nobody would listen until he or she resorted to violence. It is so true. People want help every day... But nobody gives it, so some, a small but clear population, choose another form to show it. And they become cowards, hiding behind guns instead of their own words. Words did not work for them. To Kill a Mockingbird has so many important lessons, and people can go back and forth on them for years. But this book can relate to everything and everyone, especially in a world where some people only listen when violence is used.
I think that the town dump is symbolism for the lowlife of society. People dont like to be around garbage because it is disgusting, and they dont want to be concerned with it after they have thrown it out. The people who are considered "trash" to the society are forced to live, literally with the people's trash(ex. Ewells, Blacks).
ReplyDeleteErin, I see what your saying with Mr. Underwood hiding behind the gun. Usually people do hide behind weapons when in danger to guard themselves. Just like this, Atticus tries to hide his other side behind the gun. But Atticus generally does not hide himself behind weapons. Instead he exposes himself to the world and fights without being a coward with a gun by using words. But by doing this, he is also exposing himself and not using physical weapons to make himself vulnerable. He makes himself vulnerable to the people with guns or the people with violent intentions such as Bob Ewell. Since Bob Ewell knows Atticus will not use violent methods to fight back, that is when he decides to go after Scout and Jem. Although they do not have guns, Bob and Boo also use knives as a weapon. Bob hides behind the knife as a last resort just in case he can't kill the children with his bare hands. Boo hides behind the knife because he is too weak to kill Bob himself. The knife is the tool performing the violent act not Boo even though he is the one with the knife. Weapons are just a cover or curtain which makes men feel they hsve power. The more weapons there are the more power one has. It is like the cuban missile crisis where the weapons just kept building that it got out of control that the world could have been blown up four times. The even stronger person though is the one who can stand up to weapons or methods of violence such as Atticus. He is the true threat with the power.
ReplyDeleteDanielle, overall Harper Lee provides an interesting point of view on guns (and knives), that people holding guns (and weapons) are cowards. But she also shows a side of them that is not pure evil. Without using a knife, there is no telling whether Boo would have been able to save Jem and Scout. I think the message Harper Lee is conveying is that weapons are as good or bad as the people behind them. And a gun does not shoot by itself. Someone has to pull the trigger. A knife does not kill someone without another person standing behind it.
ReplyDeleteAnd about power, Harper Lee is saying that words are more powerful than any weapon. This is what Atticus tries to teach his children.
Someone with a gun pointing at him or violence threatening him is going to be so terrified. Nobody who is afraid is going to truly listen to and be convinced by the holder of the weapon. Guns and weapons do not make people listen. However, words do. The way Atticus uses them, words are unthreatening and nonviolent. The way Atticus uses words, people listen. Obviously they did during the trial, because it took the jury so long to return a verdict.
To Atticus, words are a weapon of their own, but weapon is almost not a fitting description for them. They are a tool.
A weapon is for destruction. Words, on the other hand, are for rebuilding what has been torn down or building something completely new.
Erin, relating this to modern day and even in TKAM, I think words can be used as a bad weapon just like guns and knives. It is the mean gossip that hurts people. In TKAM, there are the rumors Ms Stephanie makes up about Boo Radley that hurts him. In modern day, there is the media and not to be sexist but a lot of the time girls who talk badly about others. Just like you said before that weapons can be dangerous in the wrong person's hands, so can words. It also depends on one's perspective of how the words are dangerous. To the reader of TKAM and to Scout, Atticus's words are righteous and justified. But to Bob Ewell and his attorney, Atticus's words are dangerous and wrong. It all depends on who is pointing the gun and who the gun is being pointed at on how the words are used and viewed
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